The Breeze With Beverage Digest
The Breeze With Beverage Digest
Episode 17: Prime, Gatorade, BodyArmor and the Sports Slump
After the rapid sales decline of Congo Brands' influencer-driven Prime Hydration this year, Beverage Digest Editor & Publisher Duane Stanford and industry expert John Sicher dig into the brand's boom-splat storyline to assess what this means for a slumping U.S. sports drink category.
Hello and welcome to the Breeze with Beverage Digest. I'm your host, dwayne Stanford, the editor and publisher of Beverage Digest. The Breeze is where we bring you into the kinds of industry conversations we have every day at Beverage Digest. We dissect what's happening, connect the dots and ask the most important question what does this mean? I'm joined by John Sitcher, a former editor and publisher of Beverage Digest, who has since consulted for companies including Coca-Cola, body Armor and sweetener company Pure Circle. So, john, I was just looking at some sports drink data for the first half of this year we're going to be publishing this next week and I was struck by what's happening to Prime Hydration.
Speaker 1:Now, this is a brand that launched in early 2022 by social media influencers Logan Paul and KSI, and they partnered with this company called Congo Brands. They refer to themselves as sort of a product development hub. Congo is also a partner in Alani New. You may have heard of that. That's the energy drink brand that's made some waves as well, co-founded by a fitness influencer named Katie Hearn. So by early 2023, a year after Prime Hydration launched they were boasting $250 million in retail sales. They also aired a Super Bowl commercial. This was really good growth. By April of 2023, the brand peaked at an incredible eight share of the US sports drink market and the brand finished 2023 with growth of almost 600%, according to our data. Now, this was an incredible rise. They created some problems for market leader Gatorade and it also came at a pretty inopportune time for Coca-Cola, as it looked to make good on its acquisition of Body Armor.
Speaker 1:This year, 2024, has been a far different story for Prime Hydration. The brand slowed to 13% growth in the first quarter and now it's fallen into a double-digit decline for the first half of this year. So, john, you and I are very familiar and you've seen a lot of what we call boom splats over the years. Brands that have a meteoric rise. Second and third year becomes much more challenging and that volume increase just goes splat. Have you ever seen anything like this with Prime? I mean, this is a brand that I mean $250 million, you know in about a year, you know eight share of the market out of you know almost nowhere. This brand only launched in January 2022. I mean, that was a meteoric rise and it's been a pretty precipitous fall.
Speaker 2:no, there have been some pretty significant boom splats, especially in some of the somewhat ill-advised, in my view, flavor extensions for carbonated soft drink brands going back many years. Flavor extensions for carbonated soft drink brands going back many years. However, something happened with Prime and I'd love to get your point of view on that. As I understand it, dwayne Prime introduced their hydration beverage in 2022, and then they introduced an energy drink in 2023.
Speaker 2:And the packaging at least when I go into a store and look at it, the packaging looks somewhat similar and I wonder whether or not the consumer got confused. The consumer got confused about what they were looking at in the shelf or in a cooler was the hydration brand or the energy drink brand? You know, one of the things that you know, I believe, is that if you give consumers too many choices or complicated choices, they'll buy something else. And I wonder whether or not the rapid introduction of the energy drink and somewhat similar looking packaging confused consumers of prime hydration and basically, in that moment of confusion, they went and bought electrolyte or Powerade or Gatorade or something else. Do you think that could be a factor?
Speaker 1:It's an interesting question. I mean, I think there definitely was some confusion. Prime hydration, it's, you know, in a PET bottle and kind of more of your traditional sports drink bottle. Energy drink was in a can kind of more of the traditional energy drink can. They were typically shelved in different places, you know, kind of more of the traditional energy drink can. They were typically shelved in different places, parts of the set.
Speaker 1:But I will say this in mid-2023, chuck Schumer senator came out and called for an investigation of Prime Energy over the caffeine content. Now you know whether you agree with that or not and you know there's, you know we could do a whole nother show on that and pursuing something like that. The fact is, this was a brand that was, you know, an influencer brand, driven heavily by these two personalities. It had a huge following among young consumers, even as low as middle school. I was in a grocery once and watching a mother with you know, I would say this child must have been four or five, fourth grade, fifth grade and they were picking out this sports drink as if it was like picking out a toy. I mean, this was sort of this. Had this really kind of faddish dimension to it, again driven by these influencers.
Speaker 1:And when you know I think you know parents were buying these, you know thinking they're buying a hydration drink. You know how bad can it be. This is something my kids are all digging. They want to take to the school and show their friends, almost like collecting matchbox cars or something like that when I was a kid. Well then Chuck Schumer comes along, calls for an investigation of Prime Energy over its caffeine content. And you do have to wonder the extent to which, suddenly, you know, parents' ears popped up and were suddenly like wait a minute, wait a minute. Prime has caffeine, do they? And they had to sort that out. Maybe it was just too confusing for them and some parents might have gone no, I'm not buying that anymore. I mean, you have to wonder the extent to which that came into play and, at least you know, maybe created some bad vibes around that when it was a drink that a good part of its growth was being fueled by, you know, school-age kids who were obviously talking their parents into buying this for them.
Speaker 2:Right? I think it's possible. I've always wondered how much those kinds of news events, like Senator Schumer's comments, resonate broadly with consumers. If I may take the liberty of providing what I think is some perspective on the category, yes, prime is now down double digit in the first half of the year in retail data. But the sports drink category is really doing terribly right now. You know, if you take, if you go back some years, pepsico bought Quaker Oats and Gatorade back in 2000, 2001. And over the years they doubled the volume of Gatorade back in 2000, 2001. And over the years they doubled the volume of Gatorade. For many, many years Gatorade and the sports drink category were growth drivers and LRBs. In recent years, in recent periods, the whole sports drink category has had a turnaround and the turnaround has been down. So in the first half data which you kindly shared with me for this podcast, body armor is down, power rate's about flat gatorade is down and the category is down and yes, of course prime is down. So we can talk about both the category and prime. But I think to some extent prime is being hit by the sort of the downdraft in the sports drink category.
Speaker 2:I think a couple of things have happened.
Speaker 2:One is that I think that the sports drink category has to some degree become, or did become, not just a beverage for people who are hot and sweaty and doing sports and needed hydration, but it also, over time, became a lifestyle category.
Speaker 2:So people thought walking down the street or walking into a library drinking a sports drink had a cool factor. I think that basically has ebbed. And I also think what's happened, dwayne, is that I remember going to Japan many years ago to cover a story for Coke about Coke and I was told that the Japanese beverage consumer is very fickle, that a successful new launch over there, if it lasts two years, that's considered a success. So I think a couple of things have happened. I think that the lifestyle appeal of sports drinks is probably ebbing a bit and people have moved on to other products and categories and I also think that the American consumer has become much more interested in experimenting on new products, brands, categories etc. And I think that's had an effect on the sports drink category. So I think, yes, prime has certainly had a rather dramatic turnaround, but I also think the sports drink category in the last couple of years has had a pretty big and dramatic turnaround.
Speaker 1:You know we've seen this before too. Now we had a conversation last podcast or two podcasts ago about energy drinks and the slowdown that's happening. Now I see some of the same trends in terms of some lower and middle income consumers maybe cutting back on certain things, but on, you know, premium price beverages to some degree and, you know, maybe just like they're stepping away from energy drinks for a period or drinking less. Some of that might be happening with sports drinks as well. But we saw this back, you know, in the mid 2000s there was a period that Gatorade's growth really slowed. There was a lot of hand wringing about it.
Speaker 1:They focused on athletes and they had this, you know, pre-workout, post-workout, one, two, three mechanism um, they sort of re-grounded the brand, uh, and, you know, were able to sort of reset things and then, of course, it turned out they needed to really kind of broaden it out again, and it has since broadened back out, uh, and now we're going back to one of these periods where it seems like it's slowing down again. And so I guess the question is, is this just sort of part of the natural cycle over the years of a brand like this, or is something more fundamental happening over time?
Speaker 2:Right, look, I think, to your. Yes, I remember that PepsiCo incident and I actually think that PepsiCo is smart about that. I think they were concerned about the fickleness of the non-core athlete consumer for Gatorade. I am guessing and I certainly have no research to prove this, dwayne that if you look at the decline in sports strengths, that the decline is not from the core athletic hot and sweaty rehydration user, but it's from those lifestyle consumers that you and I are talking about. That people have moved on, moved to other things. I mean, if you look at your data and your fact book data from 2023, if you look at some of the strong growing brands you've got Niagara, celsius, joint Juice, fairlife, liquid, death.
Speaker 2:Well, I think and that's just to name a few I think that as consumers move to new and different things, that volume has to come out of something, because the population of the US is growing slowly. Consumers aren't going to drink endlessly, more and more and more and more every year in terms of their total liquid consumption. So I think that some of the consumption that we were, that some of the problems and that we're seeing in sports drinks is consumers are moving on. Certain consumers, I'm sorry, are moving on to other things, and I'm not sure that the sports drink category and the sports drink producers are going to be able to reverse that anytime. I mean, look what's happened, as I said, to body armor.
Speaker 1:Well, you know that sort of argues for the thought that, okay, if you're a Gatorade, if you're a Powerade and you've got, you know, these sort of lifestyle consumers are starting to move to other things. Well, that argues for maybe you've got to go and reset again. You've got to figure out a way to build that cachet again. You've got to build that brand ID. You've got to figure out how do you bring back that cool factor, how do you bring back the credibility in a way that you're with the coolest athletes, you're doing the coolest stuff, you've got the best science, whatever, and you have to build that back in such a way that those lifestyle consumers feel like, oh no, I need to carry a Gatorade, I need to carry a body armor, I need to carry a Powerade again.
Speaker 1:That's. You know what had happened previously and that seemed to work. So you know, maybe that could work this time. I guess the point you're raising is you know, do we just have a proliferation of too many other choices now to where that playbook isn't going to work again? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think what you're raising is a possibility. I think trying to appeal to the lifestyle consumer is certainly something which they probably will do and need to do. However, if you look at this data you shared with me, gator Light already has a decent share. It's both in volume and dollars, and it is growing. It's growing very nicely. It's growing double digit. I mean, do you? I mean so? Do you think that? I mean? Possibly one of the things that could basically help to turn around or at least strengthen the sports drink category is innovation. I mean new kinds of products that appeal to the users of these legacy brands.
Speaker 1:I mean I think you have to be in that segment right now because it is fast growing. There's a set of consumers Hispanic consumers that, for instance, help build Electrolyte, and they're consumers you definitely want. You've got some of the harder core users who want that extra hydration. There's a use case for it. So I think those are all places you have to be. I don't see that growth making up for some of the slide that's happened.
Speaker 1:I think you got to go back to. You know if you want the, you don't market to the lifestyle consumer, so to speak. You know you're not going for them directly, as you might with a you know, carbonated soft drink or something that's for refreshment. But you, what you do is you do go and create credibility with those core users and you create the kind of credibility that's focused on core users and athletes in order to create the halo and that aura that is attractive to lifestyle consumers who want to sort of see themselves in that light or just feel like when they're out on the field as second string or maybe just playing their pickup basketball on the weekend, they're at least carrying the cool it sports drink brand and I think that's sort of what we have to see where these companies are going to need to focus in the coming years.
Speaker 1:I mean, pepsico has been dealing with, you know, getting Gatorade into large format groceries. You're dealing with some of those issues. Body Armor has been adding zero sugar, adding the rapid hydration product, so they're doing those things. But there's a broader thing. I think that has to be has to happen here if they're going to get this category back to the same kind of growth rates. But also, I think you do have some economic factors as well in that whole cycle.
Speaker 2:Some of the companies used to call what you described as aspirational marketing that. You know, when I go out and I run my two miles on the hot streets in New York, I really want to be Michael Jordan, so I'll drink Gatorade. So you know, I think that that can work. But look, when PepsiCo bought Gatorade, it sold 339 million cases. I looked this up because I know we're going to be talking about today. Last year, according to your data, it sold 761 million cases. So basically, since PepsiCo bought Gatorade, it doubled the volume. That's pretty extraordinary. I don't think the US population doubled in those years.
Speaker 2:But the question I have is is there a reason for Gatorade? I mean, gatorade is three quarters of a billion cases. It's a huge product. Is there a fundamental reason why it should be bigger? It should be bigger given the given with the US consumer clearly is a bit fickle. Likes experimenting. I mean, beverage digest is full every week of stories about new brands, why they're a cat, why and how they're appealing to consumers, why and how they're marketing, how they're getting distribution. Some of these new products are simply going to sap volume away from not just sports drinks but the legacy categories. So my view is that it's going to be hard, whether we're talking about CSDs or sports drinks. It's going to be very hard to return these categories and brands Dwayne, I think to the kind of growth that they had 20, 30 years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good question. Now look, gatorade's got, you know, 65 plus share of the sports drink market. They're still the big, you know, the big beast on the block. You know, I do kind of wonder, see what you think. You know, I I do kind of wonder, see what you think about this.
Speaker 1:I do kind of wonder the extent to which this proliferation of all these different sports drink varieties and all almost sort of works in uh gatorade's favor somewhat, in that there is a lot of different uh, you know, levels of uh, of electrolyte, electrolytes. There's, you know, different ingredient panels, there's different different mushrooms, you've got adaptogens. You have a whole lot of stuff being thrown at this category across the board. You wonder the extent to which some of that gets confusing. You saw this with craft beer, where you've got so much going on that at some point you're like, oh, you know what, it's easier just to buy a Bud Light or it's easier just to buy a basic craft beer. I mean, I think you've got some of that going on in this category where over time there's just so much being thrown at you and so many claims being made that it gets confusing and at some point you might just go look, I just need to get hydrated. I need to be able to play tennis in Georgia on a Friday night in the heat and I need to make sure that I'm hydrated enough not to have to break down with muscle cramps. And so you go back to the tried and true. So, if there's any truth to that, I think what you have to do if you're a Gatorade or one of these major sports drink brands is you have to first of all, figure out how to make sure you're reaching young consumers through either influencers, social media, all the digital channels. You've got to do that, you've got to lean into it and you have to do it well. And then you also have to lean into innovation. You have to keep innovating, as you noted before with these rapid hydration products with different types of use cases, occasions, et cetera. You have to keep doing that as well. So you power through. Make sure that people understand what your proposition is, make sure you reach the right digital channels to have that it factor you need for the badge value part of the equation. You have the innovation and at some point, do consumers then move back your way? I think there's a good chance of that. If you do those things.
Speaker 1:Right, john, let's take a quick break from the conversation so I can tell the audience about our Beverage Digest newsletter. If you're interested in going deeper on the topics that we discuss on this podcast, I encourage you to subscribe to our digital newsletter and archive, where you will unlock exclusive insights that you won't read anywhere else. Plus, you'll get valuable data snapshots for the industry's most critical categories. See where growth is happening before anyone else, and let me tell you about a couple of other Beverage Digest products. See where growth is happening before anyone else, and let me tell you about a couple of other Beverage Digest products.
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Speaker 2:You live in Atlanta where it's very hot. You're outdoors exercising, probably a couple of times a week, all year round. You know I live in New York. I've asked. You know, my wife and I try to keep very healthy, both in terms of what we eat, we exercise and hydration, and I've asked a couple of doctors over the years what's the best way to hydrate. And what a bunch of doctors have said to me is and I wonder if you agree with this or disagree is that unless you're basically exercising for hours and hours in the hot sun, water is just fine, that most people are getting enough electrolytes for what they normally eat, especially if you salt your food and the water is just fine. I wonder whether consumers Dwayne unless they're very, very intense athletes If some consumers are simply drifting away from sports drinks because they can hydrate equally well with water and it costs less.
Speaker 1:I think right now that would have to be a factor, especially depending on your income situation. We saw this with the Great Recession. One of the things that happened is people can go to the tap. You can save money by going to the tap and you're absolutely seeing some of that now, I believe, and you know that'll happen whenever you have sort of this economic uncertainty.
Speaker 1:I mean you and I have talked about, you know, rising debt levels and you know cash reserves, consumer cash reserves going down, less discretionary income all the things that the companies have been talking about in the conference calls as well during their earnings reports are all, I think you know, impacting some of these categories too, and that's just the kind of thing that you have to ride the wave and power through it and make sure you're keeping your eye on the ball.
Speaker 1:So that, to me, is just kind of the part of the natural cycle of things. But I do think there's still I mean, these are big brands that have built, you know, credible reputations. I think people do still gravitate to brands, but you know you have to continually evolve with consumers and sort of reinvent, the next reason why you are the it thing. And you know, in a business like this. You know, I think hydration is pretty core to people. I think sports drinks are going to be a core category for a long time. I think there'll be, you know, growth to be had, but the winners and losers are going to be the ones who figure out a way to evolve with consumers and continue to figure out reasons for people to think they're the brand to buy.
Speaker 2:I mean, what about the hydration factor? I mean, again, I've come to the belief I like sports drinks. I drink a zero-calorie sports drink I'll say which one it is it's Gatorade Zero when I'm playing tennis in the hot sun in the summertime. But I drink it because I like the taste of it. I find it very quenching. Do you believe that if I go out and play two sets of singles when it's 85 degrees outside of New York City, that I can hydrate just as well with water?
Speaker 1:or am I getting benefits from drinking a sports drink? I mean, look, I don't know if you and I are really equipped to have the scientific discussion around this we're not doctors or anything like that but we've both done a lot of reading about this category. Because that, but we've both done a lot of reading, um, about this category, because, especially of late is, you know, you try to figure out, okay, is rapid hydration really that much better than you know? Core? Uh, sports drink hydrators, etc. Um, I'll say this just from personal experience. I mean, I play competitive tennis in georgia in the summers.
Speaker 1:Um, I know there is zero chance I would be able to make it through some of these three set grueling matches with water alone, for all the reasons that you can read in terms of it washing away the electrolyte. Basically, if you're hydrating with water before you're flushing out electrolytes, if you lose more electrolytes, then, uh, if you lose more electrolytes through your sweat, then you're gaining back through what you're drinking. If you're drinking plain water or whatever, you're going to get behind. Once you're behind, you know muscle cramps, all the things that happen. Um, I've used them for years and years and years and I've done many different things hydration wise. And I I will just say I am a believer in sports drinks. As just someone who plays competitive tennis in the Georgia summer, I don't know how I'd get by without them. That's not scientific, that's just my, that's just my experience. So I think there's probably plenty of other you know everyday athletes who probably know that same truth.
Speaker 2:Right, look, I think that my wife I don't. I unfortunately don't get cramps. My wife, robin, who's basically is also a competitive tennis player, gets leg cramps and she believes in taking a. She happens to use one of the tablets none, but she's a big believer in a sports drink and a hydration beverage. For me, water works just fine, but if what you're saying is true of many consumers, then maybe should sports drinks basically redouble their focus on the functional benefit, the functional value of sports drinks, and not basically focus on lifestyle marketing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think you have to get back to the functionality In order to clear your way through the noise. You have to get back to that core functionality what are you offering, why does it work, what's the use case? And then you build on that to bring yourself back into. I mean, you still want the lifestyle element of this. I mean all the successful beverage brands, even the very highly functional brands that you know basically are able to get the kind of growth that everyone's reaching for and that you know big strategics want, they typically will move to some sort of lifestyle marketing over time. I mean we saw it with Celsius, for instance. It started 20 years ago as a metabolic fat burner and now it's very much a lifestyle energy drink.
Speaker 1:Essentia started out as an alkaline water heavily, heavily focused on its functionality and broadened a uh to more of a lifestyle marketing approach and uh, you know, made a lot of gains in that. So you always have to keep that it's. You have to do both, but you definitely cannot stray too far away from those functional. You know what is this? If I'm going to pay a premium price for this over water, what am I getting? And I think consumers really want to know that and you have to make sure you're constantly reminding them of that, especially when they're getting hit with messages from across the board of all these other things that are supposedly better or provide different functionality. Maybe they do. That's a lot that are hitting consumers, so you have to, you almost have to be that, uh, that clear voice, uh, in the, in the crowded woods but you know, something is going on in this, in this beverage industry I've covered for many years.
Speaker 2:You cover now where you and I both know and love, and that is there's a general slowdown. You know, you know sports drinks are down, energy drinks have flattened out to basically start to a decline. Csds are still declining, ready-to-drink teas are down, ready-to-drink coffee is down, water is up and I just wonder whether or not there are and again I said, a bunch of these smaller brands that you've covered in Beverage Digest and report on are up and I just wonder whether or not we're seeing some kind of sea change in the American consumer, whether or not it's just going to be harder in the years to come, dwayne, for these legacy brands across multiple categories to grow unless they're innovating and unless they are price effective for consumers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so, and I think the other reason why, though, is because all these smaller brands, these up-and-coming brands, these innovation brands, a lot of them-coming brands, these innovation brands, a lot of them are heavily reaching consumers through digital channels and some of these non-traditional methods, and they're digital natives. To that. They're sort of the kids who grew up always having a smartphone, so they understand that environment and can thrive in that environment. And you know, some of the big companies are, you know they're not digitally native in that same regard, and you know they've got to come and figure out how to operate in that space and actually get, you know, build credibility in a space where they naturally don't already have the credibility. But and so a lot of that, those brands, I think, just like what we saw with Prime, what we've seen with some of these other influencer brands, they're tapping an audience that is looking for a certain set of excitement and exploration and that fits in with the vibe, their own vibe, and can reach their various niches, and they figured out, these brands have figured out how to do that, and it's taking some time for the big companies to figure that out. If they don't, that could be trouble Now, on the flip side generations.
Speaker 1:You know you have one generation that goes one direction. Well, they, you know, tend to sort of their kids kind of head in another direction. So you've also got to be watching, for you know where the next generation is going to go. Are they going to become more private? You know about their social online, their online social media behavior. Are they going to start thinking of brands in a whole different way? Are they going to become less suspicious of brands, you know, and think that they're more of a harbor of safety? I mean, these are all questions that the companies are wrestling with now. To answer this core question of whether all these you know, upstart brands and this whole new wave of products are just going to swamp you forever, or can you still be tried and true and navigate yourself and still be around, and you know 20, 30, 40 years?
Speaker 2:Look, I think the legacy brands can do it, but I think to your point. I think they all have to improve their marketing. They probably all have to understand their consumer better than they do now. I mean, I think that you know this industry that you and I know and love has some of the greatest brands in the world. I mean Coke, pepsi, mountain Dew, dr Pepper, gatorade, and these brands basically should be able to perform better than they're performing now and I think that better understanding their consumers, better understanding the changing nature of the American consumer, better understanding, as you said, digital how to reach consumers better, the way consumers want to be reached today could go a long way to turning around some of these categories. But, as I said, I think that the downdraft in sports strengths is, to me, a function of the fact that young consumers today are looking for something new and different that they can own, that reach them the way they want to be reached, and I think these big legacy brands probably are not quite doing a good enough job yet on that.
Speaker 1:I mean. Prime's a proof point of that to some degree, in that this is a brand that came literally out of nowhere, on the backs of a couple of influencers, and really shook up the sports drink category in a fundamental way, and that is because they were doing all the things that you just said. That's what that brand did, and that's what it represented. What it seems to maybe not have, though, is have built, have laid the kind of foundations you need to truly build a durable, long-term brand. That's the debate here, typically is you know, can these influencer brands? You know you almost live and die on that sort of that faddishness, you could say, around some of these influencers and sort of. You know when they're up, you're up. When they're down, you're down. You know whatever controversies they're going through, you're susceptible to. So the question is can you tap into the kind of thing that Prime tapped into, and can companies do that at the same time that they do what you need to do to build a durable brand that can last beyond that? That seems to be the trick now that these companies are going to have to figure out, and the question is are they going to figure it out? Are these upstarts going to figure that out? Or are the big legacy players who have the leading market shares? Are they going to be able to figure that out? That's what we'll be watching for.
Speaker 1:So with Prime, I don't know, let's see where that goes. I mean, they've got Patrick Mahomes. They're launching a version of Prime Mahomes packaging with, you know, the biggest football star in the world, american football that is, and and you know they seem to still, you know they're. They've got lawsuits. I mean they've been sued by, you know, a couple of one of their co packers, refresco. They've been sued by a coconut water supplier. They're defending themselves on those. They've got a lot of headwinds. But you know, what does that do, also in terms of distraction and really doing that durable brand building that you need over time as well. So I don't know, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with Prime. It seems like it's. You know it's heading in a direction that probably doesn't bode well for that brand. But can they come back? I don't know. What do you think, john?
Speaker 2:I think the jury is out. I think they need to do exactly what you said they need to do Dwayne Lawsuits. Problems are a distraction for management. They cost money and legal fees. Problems are a distraction for management. They cost money and legal fees. But I think that in New York at least, prime and small convenience stores is very, very well displayed and I think they've got some momentum going. I root for every small brand in the beverage industry and I hope they can get it turned around.
Speaker 1:But again, I don't know that they will, and I'm not sure what it will take to turn it around. Well, I think one thing this does point out and we can kind of leave it at this but that's that part of building a durable brand is not just about the marketing, it's not just about serving consumer needs those are hugely important but it's also about building relationships and trust with retail partners, with distribution partners, with suppliers. I mean, if you don't have that foundation and you really have worked on that foundation as strongly as some of those other things we talked about, that when, if things slow down and you start to get in trouble, that's a very hard place to dig out of if you haven't built those kind of correct relationships and you haven't built that kind of trust. And I think that's some of what seems to be happening with Prime. You know we'll see if they can build those relationships back and try to get that back on track.
Speaker 2:But I think it's very instructive, right. I also think, as I said, that no matter how successful or how good at marketing and distribution a brand is, if you get caught in the downdraft of a category that's declining, it makes it harder. And, as I said, the sports drink as your readers will see when you publish the sports drink data that you shared with me, the sports drink category right now is struggling and I think that basically creates an extra challenge for a small brand like Prime.
Speaker 1:And you could argue, Prime was for a time during that period, propping up the category to some degree as well. So this downtraff might have been, you know, happening over the last year or so, you know, ever since, you know, even when Coke bought Body Armor. You know, maybe these challenges were there and it was just harder to see because Prime had this just amazing eruption. So we'll keep watching it. It'll be interesting. I don't count them out, but I think there are a lot of challenges.
Speaker 2:I agree Again. I think this business that we cover has a lot of challenges. But you know something I think people you know, I think categories and companies and brands are able to be turned around and I'm optimistic for a lot of these big brands and companies. I just think that the changes in the consumer, the changes in marketing, the changes in digital that you described have come so fast, if you look at sort of the broad time spectrum that they've been in business, that it's going to take some of them some time to catch up and figure out what they need to do. It's much easier for a small company like Poppy, to sort of run by young people, to jump in than it is for a Coke or a Pepsi basically to rethink how they market and sell beverages. But I think there's a good chance they'll get it.
Speaker 1:John, great last words. Thank you so much for being with me again today. Fun as always.
Speaker 2:Good being with you, Dwayne.
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